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Political correctness is out of control. The very same "offensive" symbol happens to be the official state symbol of New Mexico which has 23 Native American tribes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_New_Mexico#/media/File:Flag_of_New_Mexico.svg
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Arvina Martin might want to consider that sitting on Madison's Common Council might be construed as cultural appropriation by a Native American of Western democratic political institutions. Oh, yes, I know the Iroquois invented it all - but then she's culturally appropriating the Iroquois. Were the Ho Chunk and the Zia best buddies before the White Man showed up? Why is a member of the Ho Chunk tribe any more entitled to speak for the Zia than anyone else is? Or does Ho Chunk plan to get a cut if the Zia pry a bit of cash out of the trembling and apologetic hands of the Madison City Council? Best to take a deep breath and get over it all. Just about EVERYTHING YOU DO and absolutely EVERY word you utter is cultural appropriation. You invented NONE of it, Your culture, however you define it, got it from someone else, starting with the first hand axe. Appreciate it and be done with it.
I'm not sure if Madison's flag is culturally appropriated or not, the people who''s culture is being appropriated should be asked about that. The problem I have is the flag doesn't remind me of anything about Madison. I associate blue with Monona and Monona Grove High School. That sun looks like it is from New Mexico. I would substitute Wisconsin's Capitol dome for the sun and change the powder blue to Badger red. That would feel like Madison.
Rick and Dennis Stone, brothers who were in the Madison Scouts Drum and Bugle Corps, designed Madison’s flag in the early 1960s. Their color guard instructor, John Price, inspired them to design a flag for the city.
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“He thought we needed a Madison flag because we were always competing against other corps around the country, many of which had a flag representing their city,” says Rick Stone, who was 18 at the time. “We just sat down one day at our kitchen table and put it together. We used the isthmus as sort of the foundation of the design. We knew we needed something to represent the Capitol.”
“The Zia Pueblo is a very distinct tribe. They’ve never been up here, they are in the Southwest,” Martin says. “I don’t think the folks that created the flag had any ill-intentions or did this out of maliciousness. I just think people now have a greater understanding of cultural appropriation and how that relates to symbols and ideas. It’s something that we need to think about.”
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In December 2015, Ald. Maurice Cheeks championed a resolution requiring that the Madison flag be flown on all permanent flagpoles on city property. He says since the flag has been displayed more prominently, a number of members of the American Indian community have expressed concern about the design’s “insensitivity.”
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“I think the use of the Zia sun symbol was done only with positive intentions,” Martin says. “But I do not think it’s appropriate for our city flag.”
For 30 years, the Zia have been fighting for control of their sun symbol. In 1999, Amadeo Shije, the former governor of Zia Pueblo, said “it was and is central to the Pueblo’s religion. It was and is a most sacred symbol. It represents the tribe itself.”
This flag is more of a political message siding with the people who lost the US Civil War. In case any of you are not familiar with that war, it ...
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This article just goes to show that literally nothing can be said these days without offending somebody. Ald. Arvina Martin sounds like the type of person that would tell the teacher on you for working ahead in your homework to get extra credit. I have no dog in this fight, but it sure seems like they're grasping at straws to turn a non-issue into a story.
Their mother sewed the very first Madison flag. In April 1962, the Stone brothers presented the flag to Mayor Henry Edward Reynolds and it was officially adopted by the city.
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“I wouldn’t have any objection to changing it,” he says. “Just as long as it doesn’t significantly change the flag’s design or makes it look completely different.”
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So that is what the central symbol is about. I thought it was a New Mexico flag and wondered if that had been named a "sister state" to Wisconsin. Confusing symbol on a nice flag.
I have to say that I've never cared for the sun symbol on our flag. I didn't realize it's significance, but realized that it was emblematic of the American Southwest, and it just didn't seem to fit.
The flag redesign is yet another reason why we are extremely happy we moved away from Madison. A solution looking for a problem, which is the underlying justification for 90% of what Madison does.
Well, I didn't know that was the case. Guess I learned something today. Looking forward to seeing how things go, and hoping for the best.
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Stone says he wasn’t trying to appropriate anyone else’s culture with the design. “I knew it was a sun symbol but not that it was [Zia] Pueblo,” says Stone.
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Martin wants to start a conversation about “altering” the Madison flag or, at the very least, consulting with the Zia people to see how they feel about a city — more than 1,000 miles away — using its symbol.
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No need, we already have a dubious Madison, Wi. edict of sorts that mandates viewing the dome from a 360 degree scope, unless a hill happens to be in the way or something like that, anyway, there are other university and capital cities where the capitol buildings are more hidden away behind taller edifices making tourist and other visitors all the more curious to seek out these great buildings for and enjoyable inspection. Maybe Madison, where urban sprawl outward is non-pc should consider building up and not out, and get more pc?
This is just a symbol. The materialistic malice everyone is showing is contrary to the real point...the spirit. Jon is right to an extent. We are all human and to fight over something so ultimately trivial is a waste if our time when people see that sun they think New Mexico. The damage is long done. Besides, Native America IS HONORED in Madison. From dobatuons by tribes to Camp Randall stadium, preserving burial mounds and restoring prairies teaching native plant medicine, you are ignorant to slap an "other" label on the group and nske sure that we can't assimilate to each other creating banal fighting that doesn't need to happen. After all, there are f-ing Jesus bobble heads and no cares about the heresy involved there. Google that sun symbol, you will find it is actually a universal human idea with variations on a theme. Together we are strong? But that's def not the pic you're painting ma'am. It's a flag. We have a cocaine problem to worry about.
But since the state of New Mexico adopted the Zia symbol in its flag in 1926, policing the emblem through the courts is difficult. The symbol has been used commercially to sell everything from motorcycles to portable toilets. At first, the tribal nation sought to keep others from using its symbol entirely. But starting in the 2000s, the Zia started negotiating voluntary compensation agreements with corporate entities like Southwest Airlines and the New Mexico Bowl to use the symbol.
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Those patterns are simple and bold; I like the first and fourth ones especially. Have you sent them to the city council, or Arvina Martin? She is on Facebook; you could send her a link there or to district11@cityofmadison.com if you haven't already.
“It does give the appearance of the Capitol,” says Martin. “But, unfortunately, it’s also an extremely sacred symbol to people that didn’t really have a say in how that symbol was going to be used.”
I was hoping to find some proposed alternatives in this article, but I was left to make my own.Here are some ideas I came up with that keep the color scheme using non-Zia suns: http://imgur.com/gallery/crWDa
Since this story was posted, someone has created suggested redesigns for the Madison flag on the image-sharing site imgur.com. See the ideas here.
“I think it would be great if we could have a flag that honors the spirit of what the original designers wanted,” Martin says. “But we can do it without stepping on native communities’ toes and using their symbol without permission. I want to approach this thoughtfully and carefully. I don’t think this needs to be something that people get really riled up about.”
Martin is a member of the Ho-Chunk Nation and the first Native American to serve on the Common Council. She says native people have long been put off by the cultural appropriation of the Zia sun symbol on Madison’s flag.
All these people in the comments up in arms about something that EVERYONE INVOLVED is being super calm and respectful about. This should be an easy thing to just change and be done with - respecting the Zia Pueblo and their desire not to have their sacred symbol mis-used - but instead all these internet warriors gotta raise a great hue and cry about it. Seriously, folks, it's OK. You don't have to get upset about this and lob weird accusations at the folks just trying to do a simple, good thing. Save your energy.
Madison’s flag has been heralded as one of the finest city banners. A 2004 survey conducted by the North American Vexillological Association ranked it 11th best out of 150 city flags. It’s a master of simplicity and symbolism. The light blue background represents lakes Mendota and Monona. The white diagonal band through the center evokes Madison’s isthmus. A black cross in the center symbolizes the Capitol and the city’s four lakes. A gold sun symbol is overlaid on the cross to complete the centerpiece and to represent Madison as a shining city.
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The sun was a feature of worship by many civilizations, many of them as old as or older than the Zia. No disrespect there.
“Flags are important sources of symbolism and pride,” Cheeks writes in an email. “I look forward to working with Ald. Martin to explore how our flag can be something that all people can be proud of, enjoy, find beautiful and brag about.”
Your comments are accusatory and insensitive. There is no Pueblo government in the state of Wisconsin. The Pueblo have already been fighting to retain ownership of that symbol. If they don't want it used, who are we to say that we can appropriate it. It has nothing to do with Martin's tribe and everything to do with the Pueblo wanting to retain ownership of their own symbol. You obviously need to reread the article. Martin is a representative of Madison, not of the Ho-Chunk government; she nor the nation stands to profit off anything. It's about cultural sensitivity to ALL cultures, not just your own. Human decency is amiss in your comments.
This flag change opinion is a slow news day in search of an issue to write about, millennial and others among the curious, please read some Wisconsin history of which our flag tries to show symbolically. Try to remove your gazes away from noisy e-news and spammy subject matter and read some history books, believe me history study can be a great learning experience. Moving a non issue like the Wis. state flag (is fine IMO) or even a city flag like the Madison, Wis. flag, also experiencing slow news day controversy, say into a political issue is just more time wasting for government officials to avoid facing more immediate issues e.g. state and city budgets that are periodic tasks. Yes every spring about this time many thousands have vacated the cities of southern Wis. for vacations and other summer activities, going after a few perfectly great flags is a stretch to think the least. Thank you all and read a book.